Ed: Hello, everybody. I’m Eddie V. from Boss Rush Network. I’m here at the booth for Endless Night: The Darkness Within, and I have Tom Frencel. He’s the creative director of the game.

Tom: Yes. 

Ed: I see that it’s a 2D action-adventure game?

Tom: It’s actually a psychological Metroidvania. 

Ed: A what? (Laughs with excitement)

Tom: Well, the game is about human psychology. It’s based on a sort of Jungian psychology that we’ve integrated into the design of the game, and it deals with trauma. So, basically, what the tools are that one has to use to overcome trauma is what we’re going for. 

Ed: Can you tell us the premise of the game? Who’s the protagonist in the game?

Tom: So you take control of Jake, the main character. He’s a young man who is haunted by trauma, childhood trauma. He’s trapped in a nightmarish dream world shaped by his subconscious mind. So to escape, he has to face his fears, battle inner demons, and piece together the part of who he once was.

Ed:At Boss Rush,  we’ve been talking about games that deal with mental health, with anxiety and depression. Does this game tackle those themes?

Tom: Absolutely. It tackles those themes, and it kind of tries to present some avenues that are available to explore, for someone who is battling with trauma, which a lot of people deal with. You know,  we all have our battles that we fight daily. As you progress through the game, you’re getting stronger, but does that help with the mental idea? 

You’re going to face different aspects of yourself throughout the game. Everything that’s happening is happening in this dream world. The great thing about Jake is that he’s an amazing martial artist. You’re learning how to become like Neo from the Matrix inside the dream. It’s not real, but in a sense, it’s really beautiful, but also nightmarish at the same time. The monsters or the creatures that you’re battling with are manifestations of your fears of your inner demons.

There’s always this constant interplay between the outside world and your inner world. So we’re trying to kind of bring those two worlds together because not a lot of games do this. There’s always, you know, usually an outside world, but we give you an insight into, like, okay, this is what this is, this man’s inner world that you’re playing through.

Ed: What made you guys decide to go the route of the Metroidvania development? 

Tom: Originally, when this concept was conceived, which was many, many years ago, this story, we started concepting the art, like, just doing some concept art for the game. Naturally, the concept art that emerged was basically what we have on a postcard, which is like a side-scrolling, floaty character. So, based on that, we decided to turn it into a side scroller initially.  So this is the second iteration of this game. We wanted to take that aspect and really make it as good as we can.

Ed: I must say, I need this art of the main character. How did the art team come up with the design? Were they drawing different characters? 

Tom: So a lot of stuff went into this. The scars are a representation of his inner wound. The two different aspects of him are the representation of his normal self and the shadow self. There’s a famous psychologist who claims that we all have this shadow archetype. So this is our badass version of ourselves. Right? 

The thing about our shadow selves is that sometimes we make friends with it. Sometimes we’re kind of disconnected from it. It could be bad if it’s unconscious, but if we can create a conscious awareness of the shadow, we can communicate with it, and it could be a source of inspiration, could be a source of great athletic performance, for example, or a great project. So we’re trying to awaken that in players through the visuals.

Ed: Did you all as a team do any research about it so that you could incorporate this in the game the correct way?

Tom: Yes. I’ve been a fan of this idea for probably two decades now, since I read about it.  went deep into studying this psychology and what it was about. I’m still trying to figure out the various concepts, like synchronicity, for example. I’m still trying to figure out how that really works in reality, you know?

We know that it exists, but there’s not much science behind it right now. So yeah.

Ed: So, in some Metroidvanias, they have a shop, so you could buy items and gear. Will that also be in the game?  How do you get stronger, or could you find new weapons that you can’t buy at the shop?

Tom: Yeah. That’s an amazing question. Great question. So there is a traveling merchant. He’s a funny character. He always tries to sell your cool stuff. You can also find rare items that are hidden. So we do a lot of, like, Easter eggs, a lot of hiding things around, and you can find them, you know, hidden around the world. We have a lot of characters that you talk to that you can interact with.

Ed: One of the things about Metroidvanias is the map. Are you guys going for a colored map? If someone presses pause or presses select or whatever to bring up the map, they will see that it’s a colored section, so they can know what area they’re in. 

Tom: Definitely. A colored map. A beautifully hand-drawn map that you pop up, and we want to mark down some important areas. Of course, not all the areas. We’re not gonna mark down the secrets, but some important areas. 

There is a character named Tarak, and he’s a shaman. He takes you to this dream world and teaches you the rules of the dream world because it’s not the same as the real world. He will also teach you different moves, and when your gear extends, he’ll teach you additional moves. So, for example, you have a dash punch. When you’re wearing the flaming mittens,  you can do a special dash punch that leaves a trail of fire.  You can trap enemies like that.

Ed: We know there are two different kinds of Metrovanias. There’s the Castlevania: Symphony of the Night design, and then there’s the Super Metroid design. Are you all going toward the Castlevania route, where you might have some RPG elements to get stronger, but still find containers to make you stronger for your health and magic?

Tom: Yeah. I think that’s a good comparison. We do want to innovate in some aspects as well, in this genre, which is already very well established. As you mentioned, there are so many great Metroidvanias, but we still want to do something different with it. So we do have things like that. For example, our interactions with fire present some interesting things that happen to the player. But as far as getting stronger, it’s mostly done through gear.

So every aspect of Jake, gloves, boots, pants, cape, lantern, and shirt can be modified. There are many different versions of those items. So you can equip your character, and he will look very different from my character, and he will play very differently. So that’s what we’re going for. 

Ed: Without spoiling anything, how are you guys handling the hidden areas and secrets? Is there something after the ending? How are you all handling that? 

Tom: Yeah. So that’s a great question, too. 

Ed: I know you can’t reveal too much! (both laugh)

Tom: So there will be certain hearts scattered and hidden throughout the world. You’ll have to uncover the pieces, but it may be challenging for some. We’re trying to make it so random that it’s not even going to be the same for two different players.

The idea is that if the game really resonates with you, you’re going to want to Kintsugi the entire heart. Kintsugi is a metaphor that we use for Japanese pottery, you know, like, fixing with this golden nakir. So you fix Jake’s heart by collecting these various heart pieces, and you put them together. When you do, something magical happens. You don’t have to do that to finish the game.

Ed: Castlevania 2: Simon’s Quest has this element of a day-and-night cycle. Would that cycle be in the game, or once you enter the area, that’s it? 

Tom: It’s mostly when you get to the area, you experience the area. There are biomes that we have in this dream world, this nightmare we call darkness. 

There is war. There’s a war in this world. There is transcendence and childhood. So these four worlds kind of integrate, and they kind of speak to the different parts of Jake’s life, but also have their own hidden messages encoded inside them.

Ed: What about the music? How is the team handling that? Is there a particular sound that you’re going for, like rock, EDM, or is it something, let’s say, that exemplifies dealing with anxiety? For example, my idea of anxiety would be this crazy jazz music that’s clashing and everything. Is something like that in the game?

Tom: That’s a great, dope example. Mostly, we’re trying to create a soundtrack that fits the atmosphere of the game, so it’s kind of haunting. It’s sort of meditative. We want to relax you. We obviously are going to make you do crazy shit, and you’re going to get worked up.

A lot of what we’re trying to introduce in these areas, music-wise, is to allow you to just chill and have a smooth flow experience. The music is pretty chill, but we love experimenting with music. So, for example, my girlfriend is a recording artist, a singer, and a songwriter. 

She’s producing some of the songs that we’re going to have in the game. We also have some original compositions from when this game was first conceived. We composed some tracks, and we’re getting new tracks from other artists. Music is a huge part of the game. I want to have at least one jazz song and at least one hip-hop song.

At least one, if not more. So it’s going to be a variety. It may affect the concept, but we’re excited to be selecting the right kind of music for the game. I think all music is the right kind of music, depending on the mood. You know?

Ed: I brought the music part up because with me coming from the Nintendo side of Boss Rush, we’re big on indie games, and one of the things we look forward to is the music in the game.

When we hear great music, we want the soundtrack. So when I’m thinking of a Metroidvania or something like Endless Night, listening to the music, it makes me say, “Can I get a physical game with the soundtrack?”

We always look forward to the soundtrack. So that’s why I feel like it’s important to ask about the music, because if the music’s really good, we want the soundtrack.

Tom: 1000%. Music is such a huge aspect of it. I’m going to put some of my own musical taste and influences in there, and I listen to a really wide range of music. So, for example, I love Miles Davis.

Ed: Yes!

Tom: I think he’s an amazing jazz musician. Right? If you want to have some jazz, like you mentioned, maybe for a particular area. I don’t want you to ever think that you have this game figured out in any way, shape, or form.

I want the game to always surprise you. Musically, it can do that in a cool way. As you mentioned, a soundtrack would be amazing.

Ed: So I have two more questions for you.  I have to ask. I’ve been writing an article about games that have earned their stripes. So I want to know from you if you play a lot of games, what game or franchise you feel like has earned its stripes?

Tom: You know, it’s a difficult question because there are so many. There are so many amazing games being made today, more than ever before, but there are so many amazing games that I grew up on. It’s hard to pick just one franchise.

The biggest influence for this particular game was Journey, for sure. Journey was the biggest influence. 

Ed: It’s so funny that you mentioned Journey. We talked to the developers of Spider Lily, which I’m super excited to play, and Journey came up. I know that when it came out on PS3, Journey was the biggest indie game at that time.

Tom: Maybe even of all time. I don’t know. Like, in terms of, I don’t know, sales-wise, but in terms of critical acclaim and popularity, if you take both of those things together, you know, pound for pound, probably the greatest indie game ever made, I would say. It’s hard to say. 

As soon as you say the greatest, somebody else will say, I completely disagree, and they’re right as well. I think with the earning your stripe question,  it’s a personal thing to me that you feel this particular game has been out, you know, regardless of the critical reception or the reviews that it got. There’s something that people resonate with or connect with. Throughout the years, when people realize and get their actual hands on it, they end up loving it. So it works, though that particular game or franchise has worked hard in its own way, because it makes people realize “oh! I understand why it’s beloved.”

I should have played the game for myself and gotten to live in that moment when it released. This is what I got out of it. So this is my favorite game. This is my favorite ending. It’s done.

Ed: Totally. 

Tom: You know, just to go back to Journey for one last time, I was at a point where I was very jaded about the gaming industry. I was very tired. I had a string of failures and was ready to kind of hang up the controllers, so to speak.

But then I played Journey and I was like “wow!” This feeling is possible in games because I experienced an emotion that I had never experienced in film or television. I love film and television as well. It was an emotion that’s really hard to describe. It was an emotion of connecting with another human being in a way that was magical.

Right?  We’re living in a world where those connections with other humans are not so magical anymore.  We pass hundreds of people on our way here.  After I played Journey, I was walking down the street, I remember, and I saw another person approach. I felt different. You know?

So that game kind of redefined the lens on how we view these human connections. 

Ed:  I think that’s how I feel about Gris from Nomada Studios. I just saw the beautiful artwork, and I’m like, Oh, I need this game because it just came out of nowhere. I played it and left that game speechless because it deals with grief in a moving and emotional manner.  I felt like this may be one of my all-time favorites for the rest of my life.  It changed me a bit. Games can change you forever. 

Tom: Yes. You’re never gonna be the same after that moment. Even though the change is subtle, it’s still there. Sometimes it’s not so subtle. 

Ed: So my last question is, what is your go-to snack while working on the game, working with the team, or if at home, you’re relaxing?

Tom: What is that one go-to snack? Oh, man. Oh my god. Okay. The Scottish shortbread cookies.

Ed: Oh, delicious!!  Well, where can people find the game? 

Tom: You can wishlist Endless Night: The Darkness Within: The Darkness Within on Steam, and it is coming to Xbox later.

Ed: Do you guys have any plans for other consoles or anything in the future? 

Tom: We’d love to put it on the Switch, maybe Switch 2. We’d love to put it on PS5 down the road as well. The demo for the game is live now. So people will be able to try it out and see what they think. 

Ed: I will download the demo when I get home to my Series X. I’m super excited! Everybody, check out Endless Night: The Darkness Within and wishlist the game on Steam. Thank you, Tom, for this discussion about  Endless Night: The Darkness Within.  Support this team at Little Guy Games. Tom? Thank you for your time.Tom: 

Tom: Yeah!  Thank you so much.

Boss Rush Podcast – A Podcast about Video Games

The Boss Rush Podcast is the flagship show of Boss Rush Media and The Boss Rush Network. Each week, hosts Corey Dirrig, LeRon Dawkins, Stephanie Klimov, and Pat Klein, as well as their friends, fellow creators, developers, and industry veterans, share their gaming experiences. They discuss what they’ve been playing, explore rotating segments, debate the Boss Rush Banter topic of the week, answer community write-ins, and more. Patreon subscribers at any tier enjoy exclusive access to the Boss Rush Podcast Patreon Show twice a month along with other perks and extras.

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